Sorry I have been AWOL, but my computer has been down for about a week. At one point I had two hours of nothing but the blue screen of death, but I have been able to perform at least a partial resurrection.
We dropped our daughter off at kindergarten for the first time today and on Friday we celebrated our tenth wedding anniversary. It isn’t often in life when you are going through a major transition and all of life seems connected to it. This weekend it feel like a whole chapter, a decade long, has closed and a new one has opened. I feel as ready for it as I can be.
Wait where did all the tiny, barely old enough to dress themselves gymnasts go…
Well the Olympics are over and pastors everywhere will have to find new preaching material. Reflecting on these Olympics, they were spectacular and troubling. Nothing but love for the athletes who gave of themselves, and the incredible performances, but I wasn’t too taken with the ultra glitzy China is modern and fantastic Olympic presentation. China hid its dirt to show how wonderful it is. The Chinese people are beautiful and a true treasure, but the government leaves so much to be desired. The Olympics really made that stand out in profound ways.
Strange observations about the Olympics…
Chinese people don’t make splashes
India, a country with over a billion people, won a total of 3 medals.
Any team from the Netherlands will be the most beautiful people in the competition.
Marathoners are freaks. They were running 5:30 and 5:10 miles for 26 miles, how is this humanly possible? The American marathoners looke pathetic and they ran 2:10 marathons.
They needed to show more weighlifting and shotputting in primetime.
Sprinters are the Wide Receivers of the Olympics (See prima donna definitions)
Did you see the story about the Cuban Taekwondo competitor who got mad at the ref and kicked him in the face? This is straight out of Bloodsport or some other terrible martial arts tournament movie. I kept waiting to hear that this same competitor had taken another competitors girlfriend hostage until after the match.
Living as the Majority
I was preaching in Exodus chapter 1 yesterday and this passage really just stuck with me. The suffering of the Israelites at the hands of the Egyptians has always served as a powerful image of the church struggling against the world for me. This time, however, I really felt God challenging me to not place myself with the Israelites in the story, but with the Egyptians. As educated, wealthy, free, and privileged Christians, we are with the majority, not the minority. We have the power, influence, and resources that the rest of the world does not. And we too live in fear, like the Egyptians, that somehow the minority will rise up against us and take it all away. This is a really challenging text to read as an Egyptian.
The irrational fear and paranoia that lead to such barbaric acts against the Israelites are the same factors that affect us as Christians today. When I read stories of Christian groups that are helping to fight the battle on immigration, and somehow view this as part of their Christian duty, it makes me physically ill. We are working not to bring justice to those who need it, but to protect what we have out of a sense of greed. If we wanted justice for immigrants, we would be working to give them a better alternative to having to sneak into our country, or we would be working to open our borders to help out as many of them as possible. How many fellow Christians are we refusing to offer basic hospitality and rights to in the name of our patriotism?
Let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that we are somehow different than everyone else. We have these same thoughts and struggles. We must be different, however, in our struggle to overcome them and to practice loving those who are most in need, in the name of Christ.
August 25, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Hey Greg,
Sorry to hear about the computer virus.
How did you feel watching your daughter go off to school?
Congratulations on the 10th wedding anniversary…It seems impossible!
Irrational fear and paranoia? I do not believe, in any way, that this is the real origin of the general opposition associated with the immigration debate.
Look at this link (University of Virginia):
http://usinfo.state.gov/journals/itsv/0699/ijse/spain.htm
The US allows about 1,000,000 legal immigrants (highest in the world?) per year and the overall population , according to the General Social Survey, doesn’t have a problem with legal immigration and/or legal immigrants.
No irrational fear or paranoia, here.
Also, link at this link (Center For Immigration Studies):
http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/back101.html
The number of immigrants living in the United States has more than tripled since 1970, from 9.6 million to 28.4 million. As a percentage of the U.S. population, immigrants have more than doubled, from 4.7 percent in 1970 to 10.4 percent in 2000.
No fear or irrationality, here.
When this issue is discussed, why does it seem that one side consistently blurs the line between legal and illegal immigration?
And…is there really some Christian group out there opposing legal immigration?
And…why/how do Constitutional concerns, US law and real socioeconomic issues/concerns get labled “irrational fear and paranoia”?
Isn’t this unreasonable?
Every single Democratic presidential nominee stated that they would use US taxpayer monies to fund the provision of healthcare to illegal immigrants. It is not out of irrational fear or paranoia that one takes a position against these nominees or their position(s). The opposition, as I have read and experienced, is born out of Constitutional concerns, regard for the law, regard for the future of the Country, regard for a capitalist society and regard for basic fairness (towards US citizens and legal immigrants).
The redistribution of wealth is not an ideal that is consistent with our Constitution or consistent with our form of government (nor for that matter is an unrestricted/uncontrolled border).
When the implementation of socialist/open border/redistribution of wealth policies become economically unsustainable (high tax rates, high unemployment, lower Treasury tax revenues)…then what is to be done?
Can we not learn from history (even recent history)?
Within a decade ago, Alan Greenspan and the Federal Reserve (along with many well intentioned? liberals) lamented that the mortgage writing requirements/standards prevented minorities from getting a mortgage to purchase a home of their own. As such, they stated that it was necessary for the creation of creative mortgage products and the relaxing mortgage requirements and standards. Many, back then, stated that the creation of such mortgage products, and the relaxing of requirements and standards, would eventually create a banking crisis. Many liberals referred to those folks as racist (with irrational fear and paranoia to be sure)…
The rest, as they say, is history.
And…I think that your analogy is the equating of apples and oranges. Among other things, illegal immigrants are committing a crime.
Paul
August 25, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Paul,
It was pretty cool watching her head of to school. I was proud, excited, scared and out of sorts. That seems about right.
About immigration…
I didn’t say that opposing immigration requires irrational and paranonia induced fear, just that these are present within this debate. I do not have a problem with Christians who oppose healthcare to illegal immigrants or more open borders, or allowing more legal immigrants, if they do so based on kingdom reasons. I just don’t think that is the care very often.
I guess a bigger question is about the nature of how we should respond to the illegality of these immigrants. The fact that they enter this country illegally is not the defining question for us is it? Aren’t the morality behind the laws and the laws of the Kingdom of God more important issues in this debate.
How does the fact that so many immigrants are Christians affect our view of the issue?
What about the realities that there are so many immigrants already and that they are so vulnerable in our culture? What should that motivate us to do?
These are the questions I think should define our views on immigration. Certainly fine Christians with committed faiths will have differing answers to these questions, I just think that are important to ask.
The scenarios between today and Exodus 1 are certainly different, but they force us to ask important questions of our lives and views.
August 25, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Greg,
Wait until she (and he) starts Junor High!
Not to beat a dead horse…but this sounds like opposing illegal immigration requires irrational fear, paranoia and greed:
The irrational fear and paranoia that lead to such barbaric acts against the Israelites are the same factors that affect us as Christians today. When I read stories of Christian groups that are helping to fight the battle on immigration, and somehow view this as part of their Christian duty, it makes me physically ill. We are working not to bring justice to those who need it, but to protect what we have out of a sense of greed.
And…what Christian group opposes legal immigration?
Kingdom reasons? That confuses me. What do you mean, here?
And…the US Church and the US taxpayer give an enormous amount of assistance to the needy around the globe…by far, more than any other entity in the world.
Are you saying that Christians, in order to be biblically-minded, should support illegal immigration and the changing of current immigration laws?
And…these “they” who don’t care very often: Who are they and what/who don’t they care about?
I guess a bigger question is about the nature of how we should respond to the illegality of these immigrants. The fact that they enter this country illegally is not the defining question for us is it?
Yes, of course…why wouldn’t it be? Are we not a nation of laws (as opposed to a nation of lawlessness)?
The cost to the taxpayer and society may be unsustainable. Why wouldn’t this matter?
Aren’t the morality behind the laws and the laws of the Kingdom of God more important issues in this debate.
Huh? What do you mean, here? Are you advocating that the Nation’s policies and laws should somehow be determined via the priorities of the Church? Liberals have always screamed “theocracy” when such notions were mentioned. In the fight for prayer in schools and the Ten Commandments cases, we always hear about separation…so what are you advocating, here?
How does the fact that so many immigrants are Christians affect our view of the issue?
What is the exact statistic that you are referring to, here. And…it doesn’t affect our view. The law is the law. Is law-breaking consistent with Christianity (specific to this issue, not just in a more broad sense)?
What about the realities that there are so many immigrants already and that they are so vulnerable in our culture? What should that motivate us to do?
Are you referring to legal or illegal immigrants, here?
As far as the legal immigrants, we can do everything we are already doing (and part of the reason they came here)…
Maintain a free and capitalist society, which generates the greatest economy in the world. A society and an economy that affords every legal citizen an equal and immense opportunity. On a smaller scale, we can sponsor, employ and assist the legal immigrants in our communities. Have you ever been to the swearing in of citizens at a federal court house? I know many small business men that have (and have benn there myself).
The scenarios between today and Exodus 1 are certainly different, but they force us to ask important questions of our lives and views.
So…it doesn’t matter if what is compared is really apple and oranges as long as we can use it to ask questions about our view on illegal immigration and illegal immigrants?
Paul
August 25, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Paul,
Thanks for trying to tackle all of the questions I posted in my response. Unfortunately I usually do that and post to many and make this an unweildy conversation. So let me try to take a bit a slower and dig into the main thrust of the post from today.
Do I think that Christians in this country should be working to overthrow the immigration laws, smuggle immigrants or promote lawlessness? No.
But, I do think that in many cases, and the current immigration situation which is a multifaceted issue with issues within issues is such a case, that we as Christians in American have to look beyond being good Americans and make sure that how we are living fits in with our place in the kingdom of God. (Now there was a Pauline, the Apostle not you, sentence)
Why do I feel the immigration issue demands that we look beyond the current situation for satisfaction? I just believe that God has called us through a consistent Biblical witness to take care of, provide for, and speak up on behalf of the aliens and strangers among us. This is a clear and persistent ethic laid out in the Old Testament and echoed in the New Testament.
The illegal immigrants in this country are poorly treated, have few rights, have little protection, and often go through grave risk to get here and try to better their lives. I understand why we have immigration laws, and why the government enforces them. But as a Christian I am willing to leave the enforcement of those laws to government and instead to practice the law of loving my neighbor when it comes to illegal immigrants.
The most recent Pew Studies about the changing landscape of denominations in our country showed extensively that the only reason the Catholic Church in the US hasn’t plummeted in membership is because of the mass immigration from Mexico, Central, and South America. That is why I talk about this being a Christian issue.
I wasn’t offering any answers in this blog, merely asking questions that are burning within me. I am disatisfied with allowing government policies in regards to immigration dictate how I view, treat, or understand the churches role in regards to desperate and vulnerable people created in his image. I hope that is the motivation behind all of our action in this issue.
August 26, 2008 at 2:47 am
Greg,
Thank you for the response.
But, I do think that in many cases, and the current immigration situation which is a multifaceted issue with issues within issues is such a case, that we as Christians in American have to look beyond being good Americans and make sure that how we are living fits in with our place in the kingdom of God. (Now there was a Pauline, the Apostle not you, sentence)
Okay…so please tell me how Christians are supposed to look beyond being Americans and make sure that how we are living fits in with our place in the Kingdom of God. How does this flesh out and what, practically speaking, does this look like as it relates to the illegal immigration issue?
The illegal immigrants in this country are poorly treated, have few rights…
Should non-citizen breakers of the law be afforded rights? Are you advocating that illegal immigrants have rights and if so, what rights?
But as a Christian I am willing to leave the enforcement of those laws to government and instead to practice the law of loving my neighbor when it comes to illegal immigrants.
Is any Christian group really working on enforcement of immigration laws (apples and oranges again)? You haven’t even mentioned, yet, what Christian group was against legal immigration. And…how do you propose that we love the illegal immigrant as our neighbor? What does that look like, exactly?
How about the guy that breaks and enters into your home and helps himself to the contents of your wife’s purse while your kids are asleep upstairs. How should you love him as your neighbor? With no police involvement? With no consequences for his law breaking? Are you being greedy by desiring to keep the contents of your home, including your children, and your wife’s purse secure?
…the only reason the Catholic Church in the US hasn’t plummeted in membership is because of the mass immigration from Mexico, Central, and South America.
A Christian this does not make.
I wasn’t offering any answers in this blog, merely asking questions that are burning within me.
All questions are supported by a premise. Your questions are not any different. It is the premise that is being discussed. There are no free passes because one is simply just asking a question (and like a position isn’t revealed by the question and it’s premise).
I am disatisfied with allowing government policies in regards to immigration dictate how I view, treat, or understand the churches role in regards to desperate and vulnerable people created in his image.
Okay…why only polar thinking on the issue. Why is it just either or? Why isn’t it possible that one be supportive of the Constitution and supportive of immigration laws and also have regard for the desperate and vulnerable? Why is it impossible to do both?
Why are people who want to see the government uphold the laws of the land painted as “bad guys” (greedy, irrational, fearful and paranoid)?
And…so if the laws of the United States do not dictate how you view illegal immigrants, what do you say is the Church’s role concerning these folks. Should the Church support their presence? Should the Church support their illegal entrance into the Country? Should the Church support the giving of taxpayer funds to them? Should the Church encourage congregates to vote for candidates who give taxpayer funded benefits to illegal immigrants?
Paul
August 26, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Let’s start with the first question, about how to properly place our roles as Christians and Americans.
As Americans the concerns that may dominate this issue surround the economy, national security, social services, the housing market, etc…
As Christians the primary concerns we have in regards to this issue are about mercy, hospitality, looking out for the marginalized, and bringing Christ to millions and millions of immigrants flocking to this country.
These concerns will come into conflict. The hard part for us is how we reconcile them.
Should non-citizens be afforded rights? I believe yes, because our policies on who we let into the country and why are not very even handed. Our economy is very dependent on the migrant labor force. Yet, we don’t want to acknowledge this through providing social services for them. Certainly both sides of the political spectrum acknowledge the brokenness of our current system. Everyone wants change.
Beyond the question for our country, as Christians, do we want to do everything we can to help provide for and minister to this population, especially if they are not afforded rights? I certainly believe that is the consistent testimony of scripture.
You are right, there is a premise behind my questions, and the premise is that as the church we are called to be a peculiar people. We are called to live out our faith in such a way that we stand out from the rest of our culture because of the ethic of Christ’s love that pervades every aspect of our lives. I don’t think we have done this very well in regards to this issue.
Let me stop there and post later on the last questions you asked and offer some practical ways in which I think this demonstrates itself.
August 26, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Hey Greg,
Should non-citizens be afforded rights? I believe yes, because our policies on who we let into the country and why are not very even handed.
Wow, really…What rights?
Which specific policies are not very even handed?
Our economy is very dependent on the migrant labor force.
Really…Do you have citations and numbers?
You are right,
Well, of course.
…there is a premise behind my questions, and the premise is that as the church we are called to be a peculiar people.
And how exactly is our call to be peculiar translated into political support for illegal immigration? Ain’t that a stretch? What are the biblical citations for supporting taxpayer funded benefits to illegal immigrants? Besides, that doesn’t make us peculiar in a biblical way…it makes us peculiar in a Marxist way.
And…Please show me when/where Jesus used the governemnt, or the political establishment, as a vehicle for helping the poor, healing the sick, and/or saving the lost in an effort to build His Kingdom. Also show me where/when the New Testament Church did the same thing.
We are called to live out our faith in such a way that we stand out from the rest of our culture because of the ethic of Christ’s love that pervades every aspect of our lives.
What exactly is the “ethic of Christ’s love” and how does it relate to supporting the use of other people’s money, via a government taxation system, to fund “good works”? How does this alleged ethic call for the usurping of a nation’s laws?
And…why is it that when Christians partcipated in the political process to stop abortion (protect the weak and defensless), prohibit homosexual marriage and to protect the Ten Commandments…liberals bemoaned the efforts as “legislating morality” (and it was a bad thing) but now legislating morality for the advancement of liberal causes, via an “ethic of Christ”, is hip, trendy, and allegedly biblical?
August 27, 2008 at 2:00 am
Paul,
I feel like we are confusing some of the issues being discussed here. I never said that supporting policies regarding funding, providing for, or on the other hand preventing and toughing immigration are part of our call to be a peculiar people. I am saying that regardless of what the law provides for these people, we as the church should be working to help them because that is what Jesus would have us do.
You can condemn the liberal sides of the political or Christian perspective all you want, but that is irrelevant to the conversation.
I am not proposing government legislation as the answer, my response to questions about government actions were somewhat of a sidebar, offering my opinion.
What I feel very confident in, however, is that a consistent Biblical ethic for assisting, providing for, practicing hospitality with, and even building into our laws a provision for the aliens and strangers among us calls us to be very concerned about the immigrant population that is flooding into our country.
Whatever we think about this is an ideological conversation, the reality is that tens of millions of immigrants, illegal and legal, are in this country and will continue to come into this country, and we as the church must figure out how they fit into our call to love our neighbor as ourselves.
August 27, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Greg,
But you said that you would give illegal immigrants rights. What rights, exactly?
And you advocated that illegal immigrants get taxpayer funded benefits when you posted:
Our economy is very dependent on the migrant labor force. Yet, we don’t want to acknowledge this through providing social services for them.
These actions are inclusive of utilizing the government (meaning the taxpayer) to care for illegal immigrants on behalf of the work of the Church/Kingdom. You have seemed to weave in and out of illegal and legal immigration and weave in and out of government and Church response throughout your posts.
You are right, though…this is an ideological conversation. But you seem to be framing a very liberal position (Marxist in nature) via alleged Christian duty…
And…it ain’t flying. Supporting Marxism, and its redistribution of wealth via the Federal government’s tax policy, is not a Christian duty.
You never did answer how you would love the needy thief (that broke and entered into your home) as your neighbor. Are you greedy because you want your wife, kids and assets secure? Is a Christian neglecting his biblical duty (is he/she unloving) if they support laws that prohibit the breaking and entering into homes? What should the Church’s response be to these thieves that are in need? Should the Church advocate that they not be punished for their crimes?
And…you never answered why people who oppose illegal immigration are greedy, irrational, fearful and paranoid.
Paul
August 27, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Paul,
I am weaving back and forth between a conversation about the government and a conversation about the kingdom, but I am not linking the two. You asked governmental questions and I offered opinions on those. But the thrust of my post, and my concern is on our kingdom theology.
Why are you so concerned about labeling my position? Is there something in my ecclessiology that you believe is unBiblical?
I actually did say that opposing illegal immigration doesn’t mean you are necessarily greedy, irrational, fearful, and paranoid, just that those often can be mitigating factors in our view on such an issue.
I will try to answer the rest of your questions later.